MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post Reply
User avatar
PC Admin
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 pm

MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post by PC Admin »

MLS Season14 Day2, Cancel Requests, Manual Protests and Redress Requests 2021-10-26
Cancel/Protest Boat asking/protesting Boat cancelling/protested Rule Comment

Blue Group
Race 1, La Trinité – Team League ‘14
C BatBoat/Jedi DonMasino/Loyal Sailing 18.2a BatBoat DSQ
C Thor/Italian Wolves BatBoat/Jedi 11 No Cancel. BatBoat had finished. BatBoat DNE, Thor RDG 8, Duffy RDG 9

Race 2, Suspicious Minds 2
C BatBoat/Jedi Venhobel/Loyal Sailing 11 Cancel OK
C Jammin/TTW 11 Valodea/Loyal Sailing 16.1 CancelOK,Valodea DSQ

Race 3, The Tide Is High 2
P BatBoat/Jedi Galaxy/HDT Galaxy DSQ
P Kokos/HDT Nomercy/TwA Nonercy DSQ
P Duffy/Jedi Galaxy/HDT Galaxy DSQ
C BatBoat/Jedi JohnPap/HDT 10 Cancel OK

Red Group
Race 1, La Trinité – Team League ‘14
C Euphoria/NOR-Team Fiducit III/VSKFunsters 13 Cancel OK
C Zee-Pol/POL-VSC ElMoro/VSKFunsters 16.1 Cancel OK

Race 2, Suspicious Minds 2
C Larsvegas/NOR-Team Orione/Lupidimare 17.1 Cancel OK
C Euphoria/NOR-Team BogDan/POL-VSC 17.1 Cancel OK
C Euphoria/NOR-Team BogDan/POL-VSC 17.1 Cancel OK

Race 3, The Tide Is High 2
C Zez/TTW 21 BogDan/POL-VSC 10 Cancel OK
C Excalibur/NOR-Team Larsvegas/NOR-Team 17.1 Cancel OK
Attachments
MLS_14_Day2_ServerBlue_Race1.Replay.Gbx
(3.98 MiB) Downloaded 95 times
MLS_14_Day2_ServerBlue_Race2.Replay.Gbx
(3.93 MiB) Downloaded 78 times
MLS_14_Day2_ServerBlue_Race3.Replay.Gbx
(3.67 MiB) Downloaded 92 times
MLS_14_Day2_ServerRed_Race1.Replay.Gbx
(3.82 MiB) Downloaded 85 times
MLS_14_Day2_ServerRed_Race2.Replay.Gbx
(3.72 MiB) Downloaded 91 times
MLS_14_Day3_ServerRed_Race3.Replay.Gbx
(3.59 MiB) Downloaded 96 times
Albervita
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Re: MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post by Albervita »

I see that what occurred to Thor is classified as a C , that is a claim for a non cancellation.
I hope that the reason of this maybe the need to write short definitions of each case.
In reality what posted by Thor is indeed a double Protest (+ Redress) with interesting aspects so far never occurred in my opinion.
1. the case of a skipper that is not in condition to accept a cancellation request because in the meanwhile arrived (or disconnected ..)
2. the case of a skipper still under penalty (or with the penalty cancelled since moments) causing immediately a pen to a third skipper.

The problem, if I may say so, when compared with real sailing where ISAF applies, is the possibility to ask and cancel pens. Pens that in any case are judged right or wrong later in the week.

Therefore , since evaluation will be taken hours later, my opinion is that a skipper who got penalty should in any case for the period needed to keep clear act irrespective of the fact if his pen has been or will be cancelled.

Happy not to be part of PC :) ; difficult decision I think.
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post by euphoria »

Hi Alberto!
Albervita wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:39 pm I see that what occurred to Thor is classified as a C , that is a claim for a non cancellation.
I hope that the reason of this maybe the need to write short definitions of each case.
In reality what posted by Thor is indeed a double Protest (+ Redress)
The list is only a tool for the race committee to check if all cancel explanations have been submitted (if not DSQ) and if all manual protests are submitted (if not +1p). The protest committee will process all cases that are submitted in the protest forum, regardless of what is in the list.
Therefore, since evaluation will be taken hours later, my opinion is that a skipper who got penalty should in any case for the period needed to keep clear act irrespective of the fact if his pen has been or will be cancelled.
We would like to remind that penalties given by VSK are only to be considered as a protest hail from VSK. It's up to the sailor to decide whether he want to volunteer to take a penalty or not. VSK is not a judge in MLS, only a witness. Likewise, VSK is not the race committee when it comes to procedural stuff. It's kind of part of the race committee, reporting what it sees. It's damn good at what it can do, but it can't learn new things... The MLS race committee will overrule the VSK member of the race committee if it makes mistakes on the result list.

Just like real water racing, if a boat is protested at just before or after the finish line, the race committee will take note of all the times that boat crosses the finish line. If it decides not to take a penalty, then the first crossing counts. If it takes a penalty, then the second crossing counts.

The VSK member of the race committee will only take note of the second crossing if VSK also gave a penalty. So the MLS race committee will overrule this and use the first crossing, if the boat cancels the penalty.

If VSK did not give a penalty, and the boat wanted to take a penalty turn, but was unable to because VSK already had classified her as finished, then MLS rule 3.5.1(f) can be used, and the protest committee will redress her as if she had taken a penalty turn and crossed the finish line a second time.

Short summary: A boat near the finish line that is getting a late cancellation or not a cancellation at all, doesn't need to take a penalty turn or cross the finish line a second time. It will be "fixed" as part of the processing of the cancel explanation.

The protest committee
Albervita
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Re: MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post by Albervita »

Thanks to PC for the clear explanations given.
Notwithstanding that it is clearly stated in introduction of SI, I think that many skippers, me as first, are considering a pen given by the game as a « driving point» to decide wheter make turn or ask cancellation.
Of course ISAF collides a lot with the current VSK philosophy that recognize the VSK umpire only .

Abusing of your kindness, I would ask : if VSK is a little more than a spectator, what would be the benefits (or counterbenefits) to set the race in « manual pens » instead of « tactical » ? For sure you examined this alternative .

Cheers

Alberto
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post by euphoria »

Hi Alberto,

The benefit of having the race in pen mode "auto" (instead of "manual") is to provide as much facts to the table of the protest committee as possible. For example, if 3 boats crash in a mark rounding, and only the outer boat hit the protest button, then we don't get any info from VSK regarding the inner two boats. Like if they were overlapped at the zone or not, which could be important for deciding the case.

I'm sure there are other (related) benefits as well, and I think I member that the manual mode has some bugs - some rules it would never penalize under. The simulator is 15 years old, and it's the same number of years since I tested these things in details, so please excuse me for not remembering everything :).

Harald
Albervita
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Re: MLS Season 14 - Day2 - Cancel Requests, Manual Protests & Redress Requests

Post by Albervita »

Thank you Harald👌
Post Reply

Return to “Race Day 2”