mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post Reply
Johnpap71
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:27 am

mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by Johnpap71 »

Submission Type: Protest Pirata & Redress request

1. Your registered boat name: JohnPap

2. Group: server blue

3. Race (number): 2

4. Time of incident (in replay): 27:37

5. Rule(s) applicable: 16,1

6. Boat(s) involved: JohnPap, Pirata, 103, luis, Djohny, Kent

7. Description: At 27:35 Piarata leeward of JohnPap who is leeward of 103, who is leward os Luis, who is Leeward of Djohny, who is leeward of Kent are sailing on STB downwind to the finish line with overlap . Pirata, JohnPap and 103 with distance less than hald a boat between each other. All the boats are over layline and are in about one boat lenght away from the finish line.
At 27:35 Pirata lufs hard John Pap is trying to respond and lufs also but at 27:37 Pirata creates contact with JJohn Pap and Nadeo gives pen 18.2.a.
I aksed to cancel as in my opinion Pirata broke rule 16,1 because i gave the room needed to finish and Pirata did not gave me the time to respond to his luff. I wrote on chat P Pirata
Pirata finished the race and had no time to respond to my cancel request. I had to do a 360 , go upwind and cross the finish line again in 13th position
At this moment i was 6th on the finish line and i request for redress

8. Print Screen attached (required for a manual protest): yes

9. Replay attached (recommended):yes
Attachments
Στιγμιότυπο οθόνης (46).png
Στιγμιότυπο οθόνης (46).png (1.85 MiB) Viewed 969 times
Are You Lonesome Tonight(03'01''46).Replay.Gbx
(3.02 MiB) Downloaded 44 times
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by euphoria »

I haven't look at any situations yet, but I wan't to highlight the special rule for cases where a boat is protested at the finish line:

3.5.1.f: If a boat breaks a rule just before or after finishing, and is not able to take a penalty turn because VSK has classified her as finished, she is entitled to redress if she admits breaking a rule within 24 hours after the protest or cancellation explanation is posted.

In such a case the "redress" will be time added as if a penalty turn was taken promptly. That gives 3 different outcomes from 4 available scenarios:
  1. Does not admit breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did not break a rule = Original finish position stands
  2. Does not admit breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did break a rule = DSQ
  3. Admits breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did not break a rule = Finishing position adjusted as if a turn was taken
  4. Admits breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did break a rule = Finishing position adjusted as if a turn was taken
The protest committee
piratabra23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:54 pm

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by piratabra23 »

Good evening. About John Pap protest I agree that 18.2.a applied by Nadeo was right, as he did his 360 my protest is unvalidated.

About John Pap 16.1 protest, I think he had enough space to change his course. As he decided to keep his course and allowed the contact he put himself in a situation to get 18.2.a as applied by Nadeo.

Regards,

Pirata
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by euphoria »

Facts:
Pirata 1.5 boat widths to leeward of Johnpap, both on stb approaching the port end of the finish line. Pirata aiming to the right of the finish mark luffs just before entering the zone. Johnpap responds promptly by luffing and there is contact between the boats. JohnPap requested cancellation, which was impossible for Pirata to approve because he had finished. JohnPap was the 6th boat to cross the line.

Conclusion:
Pirata did not give Johnpap room to keep clear and broke RRS Rule 16.1.
Johnpap gave Pirata room to pass the mark under RRS Rule 18.2.a.
Johnpap exonerated for breaking RRS Rule 11 under RRS Rule 43.1.b.

Decision:
Pirata is disqualifed in the race.
Johnpap to be scored in 6th place.

The protest committee
piratabra23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:54 pm

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by piratabra23 »

I would like to ask for Protest Committe to reopening the protest.

- I was protested by John Pap under rule 16.1 after my finish. I had no chance to do a 360 even if I wanted. For this reason I request redress of my race.

Regards,

Pirata
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by euphoria »

Hi Pirata,

I informed you about this special MLS rule yesterday, to be sure people haven't missed it. If you wanted to take a penalty turn, then you had to inform the PC about this and your finishing time would have been adjusted:
euphoria wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:35 am 3.5.1.f: If a boat breaks a rule just before or after finishing, and is not able to take a penalty turn because VSK has classified her as finished, she is entitled to redress if she admits breaking a rule within 24 hours after the protest or cancellation explanation is posted.

In such a case the "redress" will be time added as if a penalty turn was taken promptly. That gives 3 different outcomes from 4 available scenarios:
  1. Does not admit breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did not break a rule = Original finish position stands
  2. Does not admit breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did break a rule = DSQ
  3. Admits breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did not break a rule = Finishing position adjusted as if a turn was taken
  4. Admits breaking a rule & the PC finds that she did break a rule = Finishing position adjusted as if a turn was taken
You posted that you thought Johnpap was the one breaking the rules. The decision of the PC is that you were breaking rule 16.1. It is of course not possible to ask the PC to add a "penalty turn" after the decision is made, this has to be done in advance.

The protest committee
piratabra23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:54 pm

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by piratabra23 »

Dear Protest Committe,

I am not arguing about any your penalization decisions. You are the judge and that's it. But sorry, make no sense to me your decision of give redress to John Pap and for the same case (impossibility to cancel penalty) don't follow the same thought about my situation. May be fair a average of all my results on the championship.

Regards,

Pirata
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by euphoria »

Hi Pirata,

Please don't write that "it makes no sense". Because then you are telling that either you or the PC/RC are stupid, or that someone has not read the rules... The RC and PC has thought hard about this rule to make it as fair as possible.

The two sides of the situation are completely different.
- Johnpap on one side was not scored correct.
- You on the other side were not given the opportunity to take a penalty turn on the water.
There are two different and separate "tools to fix this" and both requires actions from the two of you individually:

Johnpap is getting redress because he asked for it in his cancel submission. Both VSK and the RC scored him in the wrong position, which means he was entitled to redress. He evidently crossed the finish line in 6th place, which means it is a straight forward redress situation.

For your situation MLS has rule 3.5.1.f, which I asked if you wanted to utilize (i.m.o. very nice to actually highlight this for you). You did not reply that you admitted having broken a rule, which means there is no redress option for you.

If this situation happened far from the finish line (and Johnpap had got a VSK pen under rule 11 which he cancelled), then you would have immediately have to consider whether you had broke rule 16.1 or not. If you had not made a turn within some seconds, then you would have been disqualified.

When this happens on the finish line, then exactly the same is the case, except you don't have to immediately consider if you have broken a rule or not. You have hours available, and you can even watch the replay after the race. If you don't admit you have broken a rule, then you will be disqualified.

Your advantage compared to a normal situation is that you can calmly examine the situation after the race before you make your position on the situation in the forum. I'm sure you don't mean that you should have even more benefit in situations like this compared to a normal situation on the water.

Harald
piratabra23
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:54 pm

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by piratabra23 »

Dear Harald,

Please, don't give me wrong. I hadn't said you are stupid. As well I never said anything about your penalty decisions. All part of game. I really appreciate what you, Goffe and all staff do for MLS. Congrats. Very nice from you guys.

Just don't agree in validate a protest (16.1) if we don't have one essential factor to validate a protest that is time available to take a 360 pen. Maybe in the moment I would take a 360 to finish at least in 8th.

If this protest is finished just let me know and let's go for day 4. All good.

GW,

Pirata.
User avatar
euphoria
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

Re: mls15 day 3 race 2 blue server P Pirata & redress

Post by euphoria »

Hi Pirata,

I agree with your point, and I think you have misunderstood.
We actually offered you the opportunity to take 8th, but then you have to tell us before we make the decision on the protest not after.
That's what MLS Rule 3.5.1.f is for.

I think Luis can explain if needed.

Harald
Post Reply

Return to “Race Day 3”