Final reslult season 10

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Lars J
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:54 am

Final reslult season 10

Post by Lars J »

Dear Race Committee (and protest committee?),

I don’t know which section this post belongs to, but I’m putting it here as best guess. Since this is affecting another team, I think it’s fair to post it in the forum and not a private e-mail directly to the race committee.

The preliminary results after the finals shows BZH Connection and NOR Team tied with 14 team points each, while BZH is listed 3rd and NOR 4th. The sailing instructions does not describe what tie-breaker system that applies for the team points ranking, which is unfortunate (I know you have a new points system this season). However it seems like the race committee has applied the tie breaker for the low point system, even though the low point system is not used for the combined overall score. And it is also applied in the wrong way.

Using the low point system, the score would have been
NOR 24 + 8 = 32
BZH 24 + 10 = 34
I.e. no tie.

The point system used for the final ranking is not the low points system, but “bonus score” after basic race days + team points from the finals:
NOR 6 + 8 = 14
BZH 4 + 10 = 14

It seems like the ties currently are solved by counting the number of first places, then number of second places etc, however this is a part of the low point score which sums up to 24 points from the basic races, not to 4 and 6 points which is the “bonus score”. Under no circumstances would it be fair to break down the tie breaker to these scores, without first looking at the sum of all the scores combined (32 vs 34).

The correct breakdown of scores leading up to 14 are:
NOR 6 (bonus) + 5 + 2 + 1
BZH 4 (bonus) + 4 + 1 + 5
which does not include team points from the first 12 regattas.

In all major sailing events, in case of a tie, results from a later stage is used before results from an earlier stage, which is also described in rule C11.1(e). It would be reasonable to use this tie breaker system also in MLS, when the low point system is not used.

For the record, NOR Team would be ahead of BZH Connection by using all normal tie breaker systems:
Later stage count before early stage (8 vs 10 points)
Most 1st, 2nd etc from scores summing up to 14 points (1st: 1 each, 2nd 1 vs 0)
Low points system were used (32 points vs 34 points)
Low point neglecting discards (36 points vs 39 points)
Sum of boat points (308 vs 318)

Best regards,
Lars
(laj2) Team captain NOR team

103 SPX
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:55 pm

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by 103 SPX »

Hi everyone,

To BZH Team the preleminary ranking is right for a simple reason: BZH won 6 races from day 1 to finale when NOR-Team won 5.
This system has been used the last MLS editions and as there is nothing new about it in the SI we believe the counting system remains the same.

Moreover at the end of season 9 BZH Team and Lupidimare had the same amount of points after finale (43) but Lupidimare ended up ahead (3rd) of BZH for the same reason (they won 3 races and BZH only 1) and despite the fact that BZH had a lower total points (49 to 50), sum of boat points (333 to 380)...

But we agree to say it could maybe be exposed more clearly in the IE for next MLS editions.

Best regards.

103 SPX for BZH Team

7empest
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by 7empest »

103 SPX wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:42 pm
This system has been used the last MLS editions and as there is nothing new about it in the SI we believe the counting system remains the same.
Hi 103 SPX,

That is not correct. The scoring system was new this season. In the previous season, the low point system was used for the overall score. This season, the low point system was not used, hence the tie breaker mechanism for the low point system is not applicable. The RC did not describe the tie breaker mechanism in the SI (and initially they used the old formulas for scoring), so now they (the Protest Committee) have to find the most fair solution.

The low point system was used in the first 12 basic races, so it was correct to use the low point tie breaker there. BZH won the tie break with NOR Team there fair and square, and got two points advantage into the finals.

After the finals we are tied using the bonus points system. We are not tied using the low point system, so the tie breaker system for the low point system can not be used.

Anyway, there are protests pending so the results are still very much unofficial, and there may not be a tie in the end :-)

Best regards,
Harald
Last edited by 7empest on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

pitcairn56
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:46 am

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by pitcairn56 »

Hello everyone.


This is indeed a black spot that would have been good to clarify before the competition because, it can create an injustice on both sides while with rules explained clearly, it would have been more fair for both teams. I know that this represents work but, it would be necessary that the captains of each teams can have a complete regulation by mail with all the data concerning the rankings, penalties and other procedures other than in the IS so that things are clear and enrich this nice competition.

Best regards

Olivier

Wetstuff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:46 am
Contact:

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by Wetstuff »

I agree with 1st post, since it is not clarified in the rules tie breaker is better resolved in the accumulation of the points in the final races
Image

103 SPX
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:55 pm

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by 103 SPX »

Sorry but as it has NOT been clearly exposed in the rules why should a change be in the benefit of one team and not the other? Especially by making an amendment to a rule (or create a new one) after the competition is over? This would clearly not be serious for a high ranking competition like MLS.

Legsy
Posts: 413
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by Legsy »

Dear All

The RC have acknowledged the above questions regarding clarity of the Tie Break. The RC are working on the solution and will reply ASAP with a decision.

Regards MLS RC

User avatar
Goffe
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:12 pm

Re: Final reslult season 10

Post by Goffe »

First of all we are sorry for not having clarified the calculations/rules for tie situations.
Ahead of possible coming seasons, the rules below will be added to the Sailing Instructions.
The Race Committee has gone through different scenarios. It’s not an easy task and World Sailing’s “Racing Rules of Sailing”, does not cover all parts of the very special MLS format.
Due to the ambiguities, the Race Committee has decided that BZH Connection and NOR-Team both share third place this season.

Calculations/Rules

Basic series
1. Tie between two or more teams in one race.
a/ “Best boat” takes precedence. I.e. teams will be ranked in order by the boat with the lowest points
2. Tie between two or more teams in “Net Total/Total”.
a/ If there is a series-score tie between two or more teams, each team’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the team(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.
b/ If a tie remains between two or more teams, they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be broken by using the tied teams’ scores in the next-to-last race and so on. All scores, even excluded scores, shall be used.
c/ If a tie remains, (because of teams racing on different servers), the total boat points, counting all races and excluded scores, will be used to rank the order of the teams.
d/ In the extreme, but theoretically possible case that a tie still remains, the order shall be decided by using a random generator.

Final series
1. If there are no changes of the conditions and requirements for the final races, the whole tournament will be considered as ONE regatta and the tie rules described above will be used.
2. If the conditions for the final races are changed, e.g. old team points are re-calculated, the tournament is considered as split in two parts. This means that results and points in the basic series will NOT be taken into account in a tie situation after the finals. The basic series is “history”. The same rules as described above will be used, but ONLY for the final races.

Race Committee
Major League Series

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