MLS Day 4 Red Server Race 3 Cancellations

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Legsy
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:42 pm

MLS Day 4 Red Server Race 3 Cancellations

Post by Legsy »

Submission Type: Cancellation

1.Your registered Boat Name: Legsy

2.Race Day: 4

3.Group (colour): Red

4.Race (number):3

5.Time (in Replay): 11:50 and 11:55

6.Rule(s) applicable: 10 and 10

7.Skipper(s) involved: Legsy TTW / Zee POL-Vsc

8.Description: Approaching the first mark Legsy on port. No room for Legsy so he decides to duck the fleet. As Legsy is heading down to duck fleet Zee Pol on upwind just turns to 90 degrees to starboard and hits Legsy. Legsy gets first RRS10 then, Legsy write P Zee Pol. As both boats have no speed Legsy gets another RRS10. Legsy asks for cancellation for both penalties. Zee -Pol cancels both requests.


9.Print Screen attached (required for a valid PROTEST):

10.Replay attached (optional):n

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PC Admin
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 pm

Re: MLS Day 4 Red Server Race 3 Cancellations

Post by PC Admin »

Facts :
> Zee takes RRS10 from Orione
> Legsy has no room to pass topmark, so he ducks behind the fleet
> Zee tries to do his 360 when Legsy bear away
> There is a collision between both and Nadeo give 2x RRS10 to Legsy
> Zee does only 1x 360 (Orione's case) at 12:08

Decision :
> Zee can't do his 360 here because of Legsy
> Legsy's explanation ACCEPTED (2x RRS10)
> Legsy's protest ACCEPTED
> Zee DSQ for breaking RRS16.1
> No further action
> However Zeepol to be scored DNE according to another protest: http://vsksailing.rocks/forum/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=597

Information:
> Protest Committee assume Zeepol did not see Legsy coming there, and it was a pure accident.
> No rule 2 violation from Zee in this incident.
> According MLS-Rules, no redress compensation for Legsy.

MLS Protest Committee

Legsy
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: MLS Day 4 Red Server Race 3 Cancellations

Post by Legsy »

I'm sorry but how can you say there is no Rule 2 broken here when in another case http://vsksailing.rocks/forum/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=59 Zee was involved with there was a case for breach of Rule 2.
FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. The penalty shall be either disqualification or
disqualification that is not excludable.
So either Zee broke Rule 2 in this case and the one shown in the link above or he didn't.
Rule 2 is hard to make a decision on as you need to show intent??? How can you prove intent and the fact not just a simple error of judgement. Please where is the consistency.
If the PC finds their decision correct in the other case then surely Zee turning straight into me and giving me 2 pens and losing me a lot of ground as i was stationary, causing me lost time in both getting up to enough speed to continue on is a case for Rule 2 also. .....thus the request for redress is valid and should be looked at.

Thanks

Legsy

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PC Admin
Posts: 185
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Re: MLS Day 4 Red Server Race 3 Cancellations

Post by PC Admin »

Hi Legsy,

We would like to point out that our statement "According MLS-Rules, no redress compensation for Legsy" was not precise. You could not get it under rule 2, as this rule was not broken. It is however possible to get redress after big crashes (like what happened in your case) even if rule 2 is not broken, according to this MLS rule:
In the MLS Rules the RC wrote:- If a boat is significantly slowed down, stopped or starts to sail backwards due to a collision with other boat obliged to to keep clear, it must be considered that the boat is physically damaged as described in RRS 62.1b.

During the hearing and evaluation on rule 2, we looked at how you were affected, and found that the boats would have rounded the top mark in exactly the same order, with or without your crash. This means your result in the race was not made significantly worse, just like the conclusion was for Donmasino. You also passed 1 boat on the way to the finish, and you passed 2 boats ahead of you because they were DSQ'ed, so it would be very hard to give you a better score than 10th. Add to this that a redress would not give your team any different team result.

Just like you say for rule 2, the PC want to be absolutely sure before using this rule. That's why your case and the Donmasino case had different conclusions. There was no doubt in his case. He made a long and violent course change towards Donmasino, which continued even after he had completed his tack, making sure to shut the opponent out. In your case, we assumed that Zeepol did not see you. He had just completed his tack. He has just received a penalty. We assume he instinctively beared away to do his penalty turn, being the last boat in the race. Then you arrive in the complete opposite direction on a dark boat, in twilight conditions behind his sails. It can happen...

We believe we have secured justice for these two situations combined:
- Zeepol was scored DNE (one or two doesn't make any difference)
- Donmasino could not get redress as his score was not made significantly worse
- You could not get redress as your score was not made significantly worse

MLS Protest Committee

Legsy
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: MLS Day 4 Red Server Race 3 Cancellations

Post by Legsy »

Ok thanks for the explanation... this is more in depth than the original post.

Maybe the PC in future could be more expansive in their explanations.

Legsy

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