Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

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Johnpap71
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:27 am

Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

Post by Johnpap71 »

Submission Type:
Redress
1.Your registered Boat Name:
JohnPap
2.Race Day:
Final
3.Group (colour):
Top
4.Race (number):
2
5.Time (in Replay):
4:25
6.Rule(s) applicable:

7.Boat(s) involved:

8.Description: I lost connection at 4:25 while i was in front of Kent starbord of him and one boat lenght in front of him in the fisrt upwind.

9.Print Screen attached (required for a manual protest):

10.Replay attached (recommended):

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PC Admin
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 pm

Re: Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

Post by PC Admin »

Facts:
Johnpap disconnected 2 minutes and 25 seconds into the race.
When he disconnected, he was approximately in the middle of the field.
The race progressed with big changes on the scoreboard.
Some boats gained 7 places. Other lost 7 places.

Conclusion:
Johnpap is entitled to redress according to MLS rule 3.5.1.d. Due to the early disconnection, his position in the middle of the fleet, and the light wind course with big changes during the race, it is not possible to give better redress than as if he finished last. Johnpap to score 14 points in the race.

Standard note for redress cases:
When applying MLS rule 3.5.1.d, the protest committee will in such cases never give the benefit of the doubt to a boat disconnecting. The closer to the finish line, the less the doubt is. A boat disconnecting before the first mark is not likely to get a redress better than last place. A boat shall never be able to deliberately disconnect and calculate a redress score that would give a beneficial result.

MLS Protest Committee

Johnpap71
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

Post by Johnpap71 »

Dear PC,
I would like to inform me where exactly are written in SI, event rules and RRS book what you are mentioning above.
We registered in MLS to race with the rules mentioned there.
By MLS rule 3.5.1.d. i have the right to ask for redrees because of disconnection.
My places after 13 races i took part from the 15 have an average of 5,1 points. My 3 worst places in those 13 races i took part where 12,9,8.
By what rule you are giving me the points of the last boat (14)?
From a serius PC like you are with IU'S , IJ'S e.t.c. in real life i am not expecting less than informing me under what rule you are giving me 14 points redress.
In the race i diconnected when i was far in front from Zhik who crossed first mark 3rd by following a regular tactics.
What you actually are doing here is:
1. No following any of the rules
2. Saying that maybe i disconnect by porpus something that is very insulting to me and sawing no respect at all to my face.
3. You are not following rule 64.2.
4. You are not even following the MLS rule 3.5.1.d. as you mentioned above because you actualy are not giving me any redress.
So i ask reopening of my redress and to inform me under what rule you are scoring my redress. A10a? A10b? A10c.?
Thank you in advance.
John Pap

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euphoria
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Location: Oslo, Norway
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Re: Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

Post by euphoria »

Hi John,
What you actually are doing here is:
1. No following any of the rules
Ok, the PC take note of your statement that we did not follow any of the rules. Not even a single one.
2. Saying that maybe i disconnect by porpus something that is very insulting to me and sawing no respect at all to my face.
Nobody has said that you disconnected by purpose. Nobody believes you disconnected by purpose. The reason for your disconnection is not interesting.
3. You are not following rule 64.2.
The PC is of course following rule 64.2. For MLS the PC has a policy on how to give redress on disconnections. By following this policy for all decision, the PC is making the most fair arrangement possible.
4. You are not even following the MLS rule 3.5.1.d. as you mentioned above because you actualy are not giving me any redress.
Redress is given. You got 14 points. You originally had 16.
inform me under what rule you are scoring my redress. A10a? A10b? A10c.?
A10 is only a guidance. When giving redress, the PC shall find the most fair arrangement possible. Redress was given under rule 64.2.

You probably know the history of redress for disconnections in MLS? Before this season, it was not possible to get redress, even if a boat disconnected 1cm before the finish line. Many believed this is very unfair. But also many thought it is fair. Tough luck, shit happens...

So as a compromise solution, the RC and the PC decided prior to this season to allow redress for disconnections. But under the premise that redress shall be given only as the worst results a boat under normal circumstances could get. This policy has been communicated on previous redress decisions this season.

Compared to the alternative (which is no redress for disconnections), this is the most fair arrangement for all boats.
- The disconnected boat is always getting a better results than DNF=16 points.
- The total race result will not be worse for any other boat in the race, because of the worst case policy for the disconnected boat.

You can disagree with the policy, but as long as we have a policy, the only fair thing to do is to follow the policy. That is simply complying with rule 64.2! It's following the rules, unlike what you say. It's strange that you step forward with this now, when you could have done this earlier if you disagreed with the policy. And it's strange that you react this strongly (also in private messages to a PC member), for a case that would not change the event result for your team!

Regards Harald,
Chairman of the MLS Protest Committee

Johnpap71
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

Post by Johnpap71 »

First of all i can not find anywhere in the rules the "policy". If it is used in previus cases thsi season definetly i was not involved on them to pay attention. Next time inform us before the event that PC will have special policys.
Second it makes difference to the results of my team. Do the calculations... but this have nothing to do with teh redress. When a boat ask redress you dont pay attention to how this will effect to the results. It is not fair.
Third is not fair solution by 64.2 to give redress points of finished last to a boat that never finished in that place during the 15 races of this event.
I will not keep on with this as it makes no sence. PC have ther own policy. Next time please inform us about special policys before the event.
Thank you for your time

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euphoria
Posts: 562
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Location: Oslo, Norway
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Re: Mls 2020 grand finale server top race redress JohnPap

Post by euphoria »

Johnpap71 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:00 pm
First of all i can not find anywhere in the rules the "policy". If it is used in previus cases thsi season definetly i was not involved on them to pay attention. Next time inform us before the event that PC will have special policys.
You are right, we could have announced this policy before the first case, instead of with the first cases and the following cases. Before the next season, this can be included in the MLS Rules. But most important is that
- we have a policy, and that this is traceable back in time
- and that your disconnection was not related to awareness or not to our policy
Second it makes difference to the results of my team. Do the calculations... but this have nothing to do with teh redress.
Ok, I thought we were talking within reasonable limits here. For your team to pass a team on the scoreboard, you would have needed to finish 8th (!) in that race without disconnection. This would have given you a medal without racing more than 10% of a wide open race. This would not have happened, even with a non-worst-case-redress, because YES it is necessary to look at the results when evaluating redress after the event is over (unlike what you say). How fair would that have been to TTW Tornado? Except if our policy was to give some kind of average, which again could make people suspicious, which we want to protect the disconnected boat against. What we are talking about here is a worst case scenario, and not under any circumstances would a worst result for you be better than double digits from the position of your disconnection.
Third is not fair solution by 64.2 to give redress points of finished last to a boat that never finished in that place during the 15 races of this event.
Maybe it doesn't feel fair to you, because you are party in this case. But following a policy is always more fair than deviating from a policy. And really comparing results from the 4 qualifying race days is not very relevant... The competition in the finals is 3 times harder! Just look at Black Pete. His worst result was 8 before the finals, and had an avarage of 4.2. In the finals he scored 7 and 15. Your worst result before finals was 12 and average 5.1. Not to mention Toppens results...

PS! For medal races on real water (which this is relevant to), redress is usually not even an option, partly for this reason.
I will not keep on with this as it makes no sence.
Thank you. I think the PC deserve a break after all the hours it has spent for you guys during MLS.

Harald

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