EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

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Clande
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Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:41 pm

EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by Clande »

Submission Type:

1. Your registered Boat Name:Clande

2. Race Day:Gran Finale

3, Group (colour):Top

4. Race (number):2

5. Time (in Replay):11:23,25

6. Rule(s) applicable:13

7. Boat(s) involved:Balder Clande

8. Description:Clande proceeds on starboard tack towards the mark and receives a penalty 13 from Balder who arrives on port tack and without contact.Clande asks for the cancellation because it is wrong

9. Print Screen attached (required for a manual protest):yes

10. Replay attached (recommended):yes
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steviekouris
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:58 am

Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by steviekouris »

Facts Found:


Conclusions:
- Clande, after passing head to wind and before reaching a close hauled course failed to keep clear of Balder and broke RRS 13.
- Clande to windward failed to keep clear of ElMoro to leeward and broke RRS 11.

Decision:
- Pen cancel not accepted
- Clande is DSQ in the race.
Clande
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:41 pm

Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by Clande »

Lol,this decision is ridiculous....
orione
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by orione »

Faced with the decision of the Committee, which although right for the Nadeo software, we believe it is useful considering the fact that at the time of the pen 13 Clande finished the tack, was on the correct way to the buoy, did not damage Balder. Furthermore, between Balder and Clande there is the El Moro boat which limits the turn to Balder. Considering that the tournament is not regulated by NPCs but subject to the judgment of a Committee, we believe that the same should carefully evaluate these events caused by software bugs. In the situation you have not evaluated the behavior of Balder who made two entries in the buoy as a kamikaze, with tacks within the two lengths and contrary to any regulation. We believe that a serious and not partisan Committee would not have penalized Clande but Balder.
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euphoria
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Location: Oslo, Norway
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Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by euphoria »

Dear Orione,

You make some severe accusations against the protest committee. Calling it "partisan" and "not serious". As chairman of the committee, I can't leave such comments unanswered. Please note that I of course was not part of the protest committee panel for this case, as Balder was involved. But I can answer in general on how the rules work.

Please note that the 13 penalty to Clande was not a bug. In MLS the judges always trusts VSK with regards to when a boat is starting to tack (passing head to wind) and when the tack is done (close hauled). Just as they trust VSK for overlap calls at zone etc. VSK knows when a tack is complete - in fact it is a little forgiving - but at least it is 100% consistent. The wind speed for Clande was around 12 knots when he tacked. The optimum angle in this wind is around TWA 35. VSK defines the tack as complete around TWA 32. Clande stopped his tack at TWA 30, which is an incomplete tack. If Balder had continued straight (behind Elmoro) then Clande would not have been able to keep clear, hence he broke rule 13 by definition.

Please note that Clande crashed with the stern of Elmoro just after Balder tacked. If Clande did not get a penalty from the Balder situation, he would have gotten an 11 pen from Elmoro. But he was "immune" to another penalty from VSK here, because he had just had one before. Still you complain that Clande was DSQ.

Please note that it is not illegal to tack in the zone. In fact, Clande forced Balder to tack in the zone the second time, to avoid collision.
- The first time, Balder realized he could not fetch the mark, so he passed the mark on the wright side. That is the opposite of kamikaze.
- The second time, Balder were suffering from the same problem as Clande. He only went to TWA 30, so he did not complete his tack. He payed the prize for this by getting a penalty (also) under rule 13 when he was about to shoot the mark.

Now the MLS is over, and it's again time to remind everyone that judging in sailing is difficult. Much more difficult than in most other sports. Hence the knowledge difference between top educated judges and normal participates is huge. Please understand that MLS is lucky to have real water World Sailing International Race Officials in the protest committee. They are picked to work at some of the most important regattas in the world. And still they volunteer to spend time to serve you at this VSK regatta. 3 of our judges don't even participate in MLS. They do job only for you... Please show them a minimum of respect!

If there is something you disagree with in a decision, please ask questions on why it was judged this way. The protest committee is usually very positive to explain. Please don't jump straight on the conclusion that you know better and the committee was wrong. Or even worse, insinuate that the committee is incompetent or deliberately doesn't follow the rules. Such behavior would make it very unlikely that qualified people would like to do this hard and important job for you again. I encourage you to apologize for your accusations, Orione.

Harald, Chairman
MLS Protest Committee
orione
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Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by orione »

Dear Euphoria,

Thanks for your thorough explanation. I do not think I apologize for anything and I remain of my opinion.
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euphoria
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Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by euphoria »

Ok, I see you are not interested in talking about the details.
For example at what TWA rule 13 turns off.
Or the fact that the bow of Clande sailed through the stern of Elmoro.
This way we are not making any progress. You keep your insults and I regret spending time on you.

I wish you nice holidays.

Harald
Wetstuff
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Re: EXPLANATION CANCELLATION REQUEST

Post by Wetstuff »

Guys it's clear Clande breaks 11 way before the 13 incident
For that the DSQ is correct, what happens afterwards is a good case study to understand the rules better, and remind us to look at the ISAF panel while racing
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