Submission Type:
1.Your registered Boat Name: Excalibur
2.Race Day: 4
3.Group (colour): Red
4.Race (number): 2
5.Time (in Replay): 13:00
6.Rule(s) applicable: RRS Rule 20.1 as modified by MLS Rule 2.7.iii and RRS Rule 13
7.Boat(s) involved: Jammin Dovetails and Excalibur
8.Description: Jammin Dovetails hailed RTT for a stb boat (Peyo) that was fetching the mark, hence broke Rule 20.1.
I think Jammin also broke rule 13, as I had to change course to avoid him.
I started avoiding at 13:00.00 in the replay.
He completed his tack at 13:02.50 in the replay.
Had I waited until 13:02.50 with changing course, I would not have been able to avoid collision in a seamanlike way, and he would in my opinion have broken rule 15.
9.Print Screen attached (required for a manual protest): Yes
10.Replay attached (recommended): Yes
Red Race 2 Excalibur protesting Jammin Dovetails
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- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:22 pm
Red Race 2 Excalibur protesting Jammin Dovetails
- Attachments
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- The Winner Takes It All-MLS(03'01''58).Replay.Gbx
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- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:04 pm
Re: Red Race 2 Excalibur protesting Jammin Dovetails
Ok, sorry P.C. but back to school time for me! Hope this helps others too...
For some reason, 20 yrs as a confused sailing coach most likely, I have always distinguished fetching as being a different point of sail to close hauled. I was under the impression that a fetch was between a tight reach and a broad reach. As in a boat that had sailed way past a layline or had a big windshift lift on starboard to not need to be close hauled to make a mark.
Hence I have possibly mis-understood the new ruling in SI 2.7iii. It made sense to me that if a boat was approaching a mark on a reach they where technically not an obstruction as boats on port tack could tack for the mark before a starboard boat needed room. Therefore no need for a rtt call.
It was my belief that Peyo was close hauled (not fetching as i viewed it) being an inside boat and least likely to make the mark of the on-coming sb boats if a negative windshift happened, that I was entitled to ask for RTT as per the original rules.
If I am wrong and Peyo was indeed 'fetching the mark' then I am sorry to the PC and my team.
Can I ask the PC how this rule change translates if indeed there is a windshift which prevents SB boats from making a mark without an extra tack. Where is the line drawn for boats meeting in this scenario that are a good distance from the mark. Also how does this rule change affect boats sailing downwind with spinnakers up going to a gate mark?
Lastly, If I may ask, what was the reasoning behind the rule changes to rrs 20?
Many thanks to the PC for their tireless work. My replay attached.
For some reason, 20 yrs as a confused sailing coach most likely, I have always distinguished fetching as being a different point of sail to close hauled. I was under the impression that a fetch was between a tight reach and a broad reach. As in a boat that had sailed way past a layline or had a big windshift lift on starboard to not need to be close hauled to make a mark.
Hence I have possibly mis-understood the new ruling in SI 2.7iii. It made sense to me that if a boat was approaching a mark on a reach they where technically not an obstruction as boats on port tack could tack for the mark before a starboard boat needed room. Therefore no need for a rtt call.
It was my belief that Peyo was close hauled (not fetching as i viewed it) being an inside boat and least likely to make the mark of the on-coming sb boats if a negative windshift happened, that I was entitled to ask for RTT as per the original rules.
If I am wrong and Peyo was indeed 'fetching the mark' then I am sorry to the PC and my team.
Can I ask the PC how this rule change translates if indeed there is a windshift which prevents SB boats from making a mark without an extra tack. Where is the line drawn for boats meeting in this scenario that are a good distance from the mark. Also how does this rule change affect boats sailing downwind with spinnakers up going to a gate mark?
Lastly, If I may ask, what was the reasoning behind the rule changes to rrs 20?
Many thanks to the PC for their tireless work. My replay attached.
- Attachments
-
- The Winner Takes It All-MLS(03'01''57).Replay.Gbx
- (3.54 MiB) Downloaded 322 times
Re: Red Race 2 Excalibur protesting Jammin Dovetails
Hi Ben.
I am of course not part of the panel for this protest, but you raise general questions. Since I'm behind the initiative for this rules change, it's best if I answer.
You are in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.
- If they are fetching, then you break rule 20.1 by hailing.
- If they are not fetching, then you usually don't want to be to leeward of them when approaching the mark.
You are better off by passing behind them and tack to windward of them on the layline...
1. The rule is originally a safety rule. In VSK safety is not an issue.
2. It's not a rule ment to be a tactical tool. You are not supposed to use this rule to both get a free pass from the boat to windward of you AND make a perfect tack to leeward of the starboard boat. But this is how the rule mostly is practiced on VSK.
3. Use of the rule on the layline creates more chaotic situations at the top mark.
4. It's a very complex rule, and most people don't understand then mechanism of it, with regards to how long it (sometimes) takes to process the information back and forth with "room to tack" hails and "you tack" hails between multiple boats. This is also the case on real water... .
The change was discussed between the PC and the RC before the event, and we decided to test it this season. My impression is that it so far has served it's purpose, and created less chaos at the top mark. But it also has some negative effects. Before the next season, we need to evaluate and may revert some of the modifications, if necessary.
Harald
I am of course not part of the panel for this protest, but you raise general questions. Since I'm behind the initiative for this rules change, it's best if I answer.
You find fetching defined among the other definitions in the beginning of the rules book.Jammy Dodger wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:44 pmFor some reason, 20 yrs as a confused sailing coach most likely, I have always distinguished fetching as being a different point of sail to close hauled. I was under the impression that a fetch was between a tight reach and a broad reach. As in a boat that had sailed way past a layline or had a big windshift lift on starboard to not need to be close hauled to make a mark.
Then the starboard boats are not fetching the mark, see the definition.Can I ask the PC how this rule change translates if indeed there is a windshift which prevents SB boats from making a mark without an extra tack.
If you are not sure if the boats are fetching, then don't take the risk of using RTT.Where is the line drawn for boats meeting in this scenario that are a good distance from the mark.
You are in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.
- If they are fetching, then you break rule 20.1 by hailing.
- If they are not fetching, then you usually don't want to be to leeward of them when approaching the mark.
You are better off by passing behind them and tack to windward of them on the layline...
Rule 20 does apply not between boats needing to change tacks and going downwind. Rule 19 does.Also how does this rule change affect boats sailing downwind with spinnakers up going to a gate mark?
There are a few reasons, of which most of them differ from real water sailing:Lastly, If I may ask, what was the reasoning behind the rule changes to rrs 20?
1. The rule is originally a safety rule. In VSK safety is not an issue.
2. It's not a rule ment to be a tactical tool. You are not supposed to use this rule to both get a free pass from the boat to windward of you AND make a perfect tack to leeward of the starboard boat. But this is how the rule mostly is practiced on VSK.
3. Use of the rule on the layline creates more chaotic situations at the top mark.
4. It's a very complex rule, and most people don't understand then mechanism of it, with regards to how long it (sometimes) takes to process the information back and forth with "room to tack" hails and "you tack" hails between multiple boats. This is also the case on real water... .
The change was discussed between the PC and the RC before the event, and we decided to test it this season. My impression is that it so far has served it's purpose, and created less chaos at the top mark. But it also has some negative effects. Before the next season, we need to evaluate and may revert some of the modifications, if necessary.
Harald
Re: Red Race 2 Excalibur protesting Jammin Dovetails
Facts :
Jammin and Excalibur were on port
Peyo was STB, and was fetching the mark
Jammin asked RTT, and tacked slowly
Excalibur tacked, and protested against Jammin
No penalty turn done
Conclusion :
According to MLS Rule 2.7.iii, Jammin couldn't ask RTT because Peyo was fecting the mark
According to MLS Rule 2.8, Excalibur didn't break RRS20.2(c)
Excalibur's protest ACCEPTED
Jammin to be scored DSQ for breaking MLS Rule 2.7.iii
MLS Protest Committee
Jammin and Excalibur were on port
Peyo was STB, and was fetching the mark
Jammin asked RTT, and tacked slowly
Excalibur tacked, and protested against Jammin
No penalty turn done
Conclusion :
According to MLS Rule 2.7.iii, Jammin couldn't ask RTT because Peyo was fecting the mark
According to MLS Rule 2.8, Excalibur didn't break RRS20.2(c)
Excalibur's protest ACCEPTED
Jammin to be scored DSQ for breaking MLS Rule 2.7.iii
MLS Protest Committee